iRealization: There are two things that emerge. One is the knowledge of something, the other is the knowledge of the knowledge – which is the awareness of the knowledge, the knowing of the knowing. Both of them are always there, the second one however is always forgotten but it is actually the first derivative.
Sawyer: Yesterday I was talking with someone about that, knowing, about who knows, what knows, all that stuff. That seems to be the topic.
iRealization: The thing is that the word “who” is very confusing because “who” is always for an individual.
Sawyer: It is confusing because when you’re identified with your thoughts, that pointer of who is looking doesn’t do much because the mind already knows. Even if you insist it doesn’t, it already knows “me.”
iRealization: So, how do you know when there is a thought?
Sawyer: It’s there, you know it.
iRealization: How do you know a thought has ended and another thought has begun?
Sawyer: I don’t know…
iRealization: See, there is a process of becoming unaware. Thinking requires the “loss” of Awareness and it becomes consciousness. Consciousness is of something. You have to be conscious of something, right?
Sawyer: Right.
iRealization: Which means there is content there. There is something there to be conscious of – which is what you call a thought – a thought is when you are conscious of something, right? If you don’t have any thoughts you are not conscious of anything. For example, you are walking through a farmer’s market, you don’t know all the things you have seen there, you have not kept track of it. You’ve just walked through it and you were simply aware. If there is anything needed, consciousness will arise. But if for some reason that thought doesn’t arise, you don’t have any interest in those things. You have to understand what is a thought and what is that happening. There is no I there until the thought arises.
Sawyer: I’ve been thinking that the thought itself includes the identification.
iRealization: Exactly, that’s the point. So, if there is no thought, what is there?
Sawyer: Me. Well… everything.
iRealization: What is that everything? Because the minute you say “everything,” that is the consciousness saying everything, right? Because consciousness is of something. Consciousness means objects and concepts. The knowledge of consciousness is the conceptual understanding and all that stuff, the so-called intellect, the ideas that you stored about it, the memories, the reasoning, all that stuff. That is what is created when we’re talking about being conscious of something.
If you lose consciousness you will not have anything there but when you come back from consciousness: “Oh my God! I fainted!” How do you know you fainted? Because there is a gap. That gap… you will not be able to perceive it unless you were there to perceive it. Meaning, how do you know there is a gap? You see? You were not conscious, and there was a gap. Like in sleep. You know of that gap! In sleep there is a gap but you wouldn’t know of sleep unless you were conscious of being unconscious.
Sawyer: Oh, wow! So I must have been aware of the unconscious at some level.
iRealization: You have to ask yourself who is that I there? Who is aware when the waking state or dreaming begins?
Sofie: So if thoughts simply arise, do they not arise from the self? And is it the self that is the same of you, me, them. Right?
iRealization: All of these you, me, them, constitute another idea of what it is to be everything.
Sofie: Does it?
iRealization: Yeah, first of all, there is no division there and we imagine there to be twenty different things which are not real. And then, we take those twenty things and we say that all of them together are the original thing. Is it possible?
Sofie: No.
iRealization: The original thing is already there. As it is. The twenty things were imagined. They are not there.
Sofie: I agree. But the thoughts will arise anyways, yes?
iRealization: Yes. A thought arises but you don’t know it until you’ve become aware of the thought’s arisal. Otherwise you would have already been thinking about it.
Sofie: Yes.
iRealization: Which means there is a becoming process. At first, there is Being, which has nothing to do with anything. It is simply aware. Whatever happens… it’s aware! Otherwise you wouldn’t know it happened. Then, in Awareness you might become interested, because something has triggered memories and associations which release those memories back to the surface, which you call thoughts. But whose thoughts?
Sofie: Eh…
iRealization: It’s just thought, you see?
Sofie: Yeah, I don’t think they could be owned or should be owned. If thoughts are not now, because in the now only action is real, then a thought is not really real.
iRealization: Don’t bring in the word “real.” First of all let’s just keep it at the level of thought, ok? There is thought. Whether it is real or not let us leave that for a minute. There is thought. Thought appears and you are taken away from Awareness – that is what it means to have thought.
Sofie: Exactly, because when there is no thought there is only Awareness.
iRealization: Yes. And that can never be lost. So, when you see the thought, we lose awareness of this awareness because you are more aware of the thought itself, you become conscious of the thought. Consciousness is the becoming process, you see? Consciousness is itself the becoming of something. The dream is itself the becoming.
Sofie: Going back to that, there is Awareness and thoughts… I am only taken away from Awareness if I follow the thought, no?
iRealization: One-hundred percent! The problem is that it happens unawares. You will not know that it has happened. Suddenly you realize “Oh my God! I’ve been thinking!”
Sofie: With practice it does lessen.
iRealization: Exactly, the practice is not to not think. You cannot not think because you are not the one who is thinking in the first place, but it is to see the thoughts arising and realize that you have nothing to do with it. Then it automatically stops. The whole thing has to do with oneself only.
Sofie: The one self that doesn’t exist, is that what you are saying?
iRealization: Right, like in a dream. Who is the one experiencing that?
Sofie: Who is the one experiencing a dream?
iRealization: Yes.
Sofie: The one who thinks they’re real.
iRealization: And that was not there, right?
Sawyer: Right.
iRealization: So when you wake up you realize that was not there, and the experience was the only thing there. The one who experienced it was unreal but the experience was real when it was happening. Who it was happening to was the unreal part.
Sawyer: Sometimes I feel that dreams are not appearing to Sawyer, Sawyer is not dreaming, there is just a dream that’s happening.
iRealization: Yes, that’s exactly the point I’m making. That this is just happening. It is not happening to me. There is no individual me here! It is happening as a totality, it is all happening at once. There is no division in what is happening. What is happening is not happening to you, then happening to the next and to the next, nor happening individually to everybody. The whole thing is simply happening at the same time. Indivisibly! Each moment is full, perfect, whole. Because when you say something, partial knowledge is created. When actually, everything is there. The partial knowledge breaks what is into pieces, but in fact the whole thing happened as a single thing. There was never A and B. That A and B is an imagined concept of cause and effect. If an accident happens in the street, and someone asks whose fault it is, can there be an answer if we are looking at what really happened? Everything just happened. You’d have to be born for you to have that accident, so your parents are to blame.
Sawyer: Wow.
iRealization: Is it not? And their parents, and their parents… all the way back to the Big Bang. Consciousness itself is the ultimate cause. The whole reason for this entire appearance is consciousness. If there was no consciousness nothing would appear to you. The A and the B, the cause and the effect, is imaginary.
Sawyer: Isn’t cause and effect just a way we’ve been taught to think? So we’re looking in that way and expecting an answer to our questions.
iRealization: What is that mind that wants to know? The wanting to know requires and expects a reason: “Why did it happen? Why is it like this?” “It” creates the “it”. It’s like looking at a horse being beaten by the owner and you are like “Why is this guy whipping the horse? It’s unacceptable! Look how sad the horse is!” When the fact is… it’s not there! It is just a painting. There’s no horse, no abuser, nothing. The whole thing is running as a single indivisible story. All one giant unfolding! It could have not happened any other way because of the previous instant, meaning the whole thing is operating based on the past.
Sawyer: It’s about grasping, right? About claiming the experience.
iRealization: Right. Now we see how this grasping plays out. When the individual says “I want to know how this and that happened.”, means that I want to know some partial knowledge about some partial piece of this totality. And the one who wants to know is another partiality. So partial knowledge, being illusory, wants to know more about other partial knowledge – one illusion is chasing another illusion and is arguing with the other illusion – that is called consciousness or confusion.
Sawyer: Makes a lot of sense when you frame it that way. Even the confusion is another thought.
iRealization: The thought is the confusion. When there is no thought there is no confusion.
Sawyer: When you deconstruct the thought it’s already gone.
iRealization: Because at the basis of thought, what is there? You see? The adjunct of thought is the I-thought: “I think that…”, “I know that…” Then that thought is captured as memory and ideas, and then, that I perpetuates itself as partial knowledge.
Sawyer: You’re really hitting it today. *laugh* That’s really cool, I can see that. Well, it is seen? *laugh*
iRealization: There is only Seeing! You cannot take away the Seeing. But… seeing what? The minute you say “I see something,” that is already the crystallization of consciousness. Because it is conscious of something, which is partial. So the ultimate Seeing is simply seeing the seeing itself. That’s when it ends.
Sawyer: When you truly see then I guess it takes care of itself?
iRealization: Of course, because there was no individual doer, at all! Never, never, ever was! All effort is made up by the partiality in the search for the totality, not knowing that the partiality is imagined because there is only totality.
Sawyer: Even when you are awake there is a dream character that’s operating and running around, believing in themselves.
iRealization: Is it not? The minute you say “dream”, that is the false knowledge. The minute you say “waking”, that is the false knowledge. The minute you say “Awareness” itself, that is the false knowledge.
Sawyer: Is it because at that point you’re trying to grasp?
iRealization: The minute that something is said, it is partial knowledge. So knowledge is never real and consciousness is knowledge. But where does consciousness arise, you see?
Sawyer: I don’t know that one.
iRealization: You don’t need to know that, right? Because the knowing is the knowledge. The fact that there is knowledge itself, means there is the awareness of it. That is the dream arising, right there, without any doership. It simply arises. In your Being, the world arises. Doesn’t it?
Sawyer: Yes.
iRealization: Without my Being there, without your Being there, can there be something?
Sawyer: No.
iRealization: That is all!
Sawyer: And Awareness is unprompted, it just is. There’s nothing I have to do to make that happen.
iRealization: That is the ultimate, what we call beyond. Pure Intelligence or Awareness or Joy or Truth or Bliss or Eternity, all those things are aspects of it. Power, Knowledge, Omniscience, Omnipotence. Why, you may ask? You’ll see it… in the dream you’ve created, rivers manifest, mountains appear, Trump appears. Whatever you want.
Sawyer: It’s like the I trying to look at itself.
iRealization: That’s the thing, the I cannot see itself. The Sun, which is responsible for all life, at day it is scorching and at night moonlight shines so it cools everything. There is a balance of day and night, light and dark. All the cycles of life happen because of the Sun. Do you agree?
Sawyer: Yeah, absolutely.
iRealization: But if you ask the Sun about this night and day, about all this life, what would be the answer of the Sun? Being the Sun and the cause of seeing, it won’t be able to see night and day at all. Shining is its nature. The cause cannot see its effect and the effect cannot see its cause because they are both imagined, divided entities. Point being… when the I tries to see itself and realizes it cannot, what happens next?
Sawyer: When it realizes it can’t, it stops.
iRealization: Right! That’s the end.
Sawyer: Is that why they say you have to keep looking until you give up?
iRealization: You have to find out, no? Find out that you itself is not there. You are creating the time: “I will find out someday.”, “I will seek until I realize.” You are creating that, which is not there.
Sawyer: I feel like the question creates the problem, right?
iRealization: Not the question but who is the questioner. Questions arise but to whom? Who are they arising to? The one who wants to know, who is that?
Sawyer: It’s just another thought.
iRealization: Right! Stop right there, that’s all. All there are is thoughts, otherwise you wouldn’t know there is mind. When you say mind what you actually mean are thoughts.What we call consciousness, is it not all thoughts? It’s consciousness in movement. And consciousness appears and disappears. Just like dreaming is consciousness, waking is consciousness, falling asleep is not, fainting is not. And inside that we talk about all these things and imagination arises in all its splendor. It’s like talking about a horse’s painting that’s bound to his owner and having an opinion that the horse should pursue his dream of living freely in a beautiful and vast meadow. It’s all imagination. In fact it’s just a bunch of colors with different shades in a canvas. Where is the horse, exactly? Where does it start and where does it end?
So when an accident happens, there is no need to look for a cause, you see? Because no event has occurred, no individual thing has happened. The totality is doing everything at once. Is it not? So, the false knowledge, which keeps arising saying “I experienced this”, are all just nonsensical thoughts.
Sawyer: Yes.
iRealization: Freedom from thoughts, that’s what you’re seeking. That’s what is meditation.
Sawyer: Yes, I want to be free but who wants to be free?
iRealization: Now you’ve understood that you have to be free from thoughts. Now… is there a need to be free from thoughts?
Sawyer: No.
iRealization: So what’s the problem? Simple! It’s over right now. There is no tomorrow… now! Nothing to worry, not a single thing because all is thought. That’s it!
Sawyer: Yeah, my mind is blown.
iRealization: That is what it means when the I realizes that it cannot see itself – there is no need. The Seeing is there, that’s all. Finished! Actually it is there. No need to conceptualize it. It is right there. All of it is that only.
Sawyer: Say less, see more.
iRealization: Who is it that will see or say? That is the thing. I’m not picking on you, but that question won’t simply arise.
Sawyer: It could arise… *laugh*
iRealization: Eventually it will not arise. After a while the craving does not arise, you know? This is a fact and the mind accepts it, eventually. It’s a fact. There’s nothing to do about it and that realization is the thing.
Silas: What is “the thing?”
iRealization: To be able to control the mind, because you are not able to see things as they are. Why? Because you’re seeing things as the mind sees them. Mind is seeing it based on its past experiences otherwise there is not anything called mind. As we said earlier, the word “mind” has no meaning. It’s simply thoughts that arise. Thought arises based on memory and past experiences and limited experiences.
Silas: Past and limited…
iRealization: Because naturally, it is limited. The minute you are experiencing something there you cannot experience the totality because you’ve created a duality in order to experience it, right? You’ve created yourself and the other. Experience happens only then – the kind of experience we’re talking about – where it is imagined to come from objects. Experience, any experience, requires memory, the past, and terminology to name it.
In the end we are trying to determine how this is happening. Reality, the universe – how is it appearing? And how is it disappearing for a few hours everyday? And in that disappearance, another universe appears and disappears. You see?
Silas: Yes, yes.
iRealization: You call it dreaming or waking but that is past knowledge or ideas. Nobody has experienced a dream in the waking state. You cannot talk to anybody who can speak of the experience of dreaming or sleeping right now, because they are not in that state. They can only speak of the memory of it. You understand?
Silas: Yes.
iRealization: Once you see what it is, everything is as it is. So, what is it that we are talking about here all the time? We are talking about seeing things as they are. How reality is.
Artwork - Courtesy of Luminas_Art
