Pooja: If we can only know ourselves, right? And considering the analogy you gave of the painting, to be the whole universe, the only thing there is to know or that we can know, is the universe itself, right? The only thing you can know is the whole picture.
iRealization: In the sense that there is no more universe, right? See, what is to be known about a shadow?
Pooja: A reflection. But… it is there, right?
iRealization: What is always there is the object which causes the shadow. The shadow itself is not there actually.
Pooja: But it exists because there’s light.
iRealization: It doesn’t actually exist, right? What exists is the light and the object. The shadow is an illusion, no? If you try to see it, and turn the light on, it will not be there.
Pooja: Exactly.
iRealization: So now what? What you want to know is the shadow.
Pooja: Yeah. What the mind seeks to know is the shadow.
iRealization: Versus what is producing the shadow. Light is required to see anything and everything, and the object is producing a shadow. So if something has to be known about the shadow, it is knowing what the object is. What is relevant? We’re wasting our time asking ourselves “What is the shadow?” What is real is the object, which produces the shadow. Light, of course, is required.
Mark: Can you translate this analogy into something else?
iRealization: Sensations are there. Or the universe is there. That is the shadow. What is it that produces this so-called shadow? Light is required to see anything, including the universe, or a sensation, or anything.
Pooja: The object is Awareness?
iRealization: No, Awareness is the light. It is required to see anything and everything. Now – what is the object?
The object is memory. In dream you see your own memory, you know? It uses the imagination to create a whole universe.
Pooja: A whole brand new universe, which suits itself.
iRealization: Yes. It suits itself because it’s itself. It is itself! It is the shadow of the actual thing. And what is the actual thing?
Pooja: It’s the memory.
iRealization: It’s the idea, no? The concept of it. That’s all. And it’s in perfection. In concept everything is always perfect. Means… in abstraction, in actuality, in conception. Because in conception the whole thing is conceived as a single thing. All the parts of it working as perfection. In one shot you perceive the whole thing – instant conception of the universe – an instant conception of an idea. And in that idea everything is contained in it. Versus here, where we’ve divided the whole thing up – in conflict – neither is the horse existing, nor is the house. But the minute they both come into existence there is conflict there, because they’re now based in their non-existence. The horse will want to be a horse, but the horse is not really “a horse”. It’s a transformation.
Pooja: Not only are we trying to be something, as we create all these foolish concepts about the world we perceive, and how we perceive ourselves, but with that we also keep creating conflict.
iRealization: Conflicts gets created because of the wrong knowledge — the false premise of the existence of objects. Existence is not of objects. Existence is of existence itself.
Pooja: It’s everything. You can’t say sensations are an object, are they?
iRealization: They’re perceived as something.
Pooja: Yes. So we’re objectifying them.
iRealization: Yes. So we’re living in consciousness. Consciousness means objectification. Because consciousness requires something to be conscious of. Otherwise there is nothing to say that I’m conscious of. Therefore, only Pure Consciousness exists, or Awareness. The minute you come into the so-called objectification, or so-called consciousness of all things, the very every thing or one thing comes into existence. And there is only suffering in consciousness. Whereas in Pure Consciousness, Awareness, there’s no objects. “I don’t exist”, means what? As a set of ideas, or concepts. Whatever you call “I”, that word has no meaning.
Pooja: So what is there to do?
iRealization: It’s happening. Like in a dream, no? Enjoy the ride! Relax.
Pooja: Yeah.
iRealization: What is there to do is to enjoy it. The world is a show. Happening in fullness. Never get confused, otherwise you suffer.
Pooja: Sometimes I don’t know if I’m being honest with myself or not, you know? You may change the way you’ll act, or try to act according to memory and the knowledge you have…
iRealization: It’s a constant battle, so-to speak, between Awareness and unawareness. Like night and day. Like a switch, between Awareness and unawareness. What is unawareness, like the shadow? It is only the play of light. So instead of berating yourself, one just becomes aware, more and more and more. That’s all.
Pooja: But unawareness exists in awareness as well, no?
iRealization: First of all there is no inside, or outside. Unawareness is imagination.
Pooja: All there is is awareness, right?
iRealization: Yes. Like in a mirage, imagination appears.
Pooja: So when we perceive two things separate from each other, it’s always unawareness, right?
iRealization: Yes. If there is perception, there is unawareness. Otherwise, who would perceive? And what? So trying to get enlightened is the problem. See, you want to be the one who knows.
Pooja: Who wants to be the one who knows?
iRealization: Whatever it is. The seeker. As long as the seeker exists, they cannot become free. There is nobody to know.
Pooja: The seeker is the one who’s taking our freedom because we’re already free.
iRealization: Exactly. And now, what are the other forms of bondage? If I’m free and I tell everybody – and it’s so great – is that freedom?
Pooja: It can be, right?
iRealization: When you are free there won’t be anybody left to save. The dream will end. Finished. There will be no more, so-called, anything to do. Then you can say what I’m saying, that everything is just happening, which is a fact. And it’s not actually happening, because it’s just happening in consciousness, which comes and goes. This whole thing is fleeting – like a fire – it dies out. But when the conditions are right, fire happens!
It’s everybody’s experience. You just have to pay attention to waking, to dreaming, and all that. And seeing exactly what we mean when we say “real”. If you want to know reality, you first have to understand the word first. If you understand the word, everything becomes clear.
Pooja: I guess there is a misperception of the world. Because it’s only a word, right? There’s no word that can point to this abstract thing.
iRealization: All words can point to it. For example, the word “reality”. If I ask myself “What is real?” One has to define it, no? If somebody dances in front of you saying “I am reality! I am real!”, how will I verify this? This has to be a clear thing inside your own mind. With full awareness you must be able to see. If somebody comes to me and says that the definition of real is this, will I agree or not? Will it satisfy the basic conditions required for my own seeking? And what is that? First is, reality can never change. Something that went from real to unreal, and from unreal to real, it cannot be considered as real. So the first thing is, it can never change. If it can never change, it can never be born also. Because before existence, it was not there. So something that was not there, cannot be real. So, it is eternal. If somebody comes and tells me what it is, and I have to believe them to understand it, then it is a dependent understanding, but not a self-evident understanding. Something real must be evident and real to everybody. Not because we all agree on it. But because it is evident! Reality does not need to explain itself to people. Mango is mango. If I give you a mango you’ll know. It’s self-evident. So, reality is also like that. It should be self-evident to everybody. I should know it. Not to wait for somebody else to tell me what it is. These were the conditions for “reality” that I set myself, in my own path. Without this I thought that it was a wasteful exercise of trying to find reality, if I don’t even know what it is. And that eliminated everything! Because nothing is not changing in the universe. Although, immediately it left the one thing that doesn’t change. Which is I. Which has always been the same. The same when I was twelve years old, five years old. I remember me as me only. Not me as me as this and me as that.
I know that I’m dreaming, I know that I’m awake, and I know I slept. It’s not that I go to sleep in a dream and wake up in somebody else’s character in the waking state, even though that happens to me in the dream state. What we commonly call reality gives some sense of pattern and continuity, and so we think that the waking state is the real thing. The very word “reality” is something that nobody examines.
Pooja: It can’t really be examined. I mean…
iRealization: Just now we examined it, and arrived at it. Now, if I talk about reality, how do I directly experience it? How do I directly experience myself? What is there to experience myself? I am! No? This very fact! The very fact that I am is the experience of myself.
Pooja: Ultimately, you can’t experience yourself because you are.
iRealization: Ah! But how do you know you are? Because you experience yourself, no?
Pooja: And that “I am” is the unchanging.
iRealization: Unchanging.
Pooja: Which is reality itself.
iRealization: It’s the only thing that never changes.
Pooja: So are we always jumping back and forth from this?
iRealization: Nobody is. It’s happening like a phenomena. You imagine it to be you. If the wind is blowing, and you ask “Why is it this bad?” and all that, you’ll not ask unless you are impacted there.
Pooja: We’re not really jumping back and forth. We’re getting something in the way of it.
iRealization: Exactly. The universe is in the way. Because you think it’s real. You think it’s a universe. That’s the problem. See, you give it a name called “universe”, now… what does that mean?
Pooja: And the illusion of experiencing the universe, or this or that, it’s why we get confused about what is real. Right?
iRealization: Yes. That word, “illusion”, contains the answer also. You can only discuss it as being an “illusion”, if it has been seen through. Otherwise you cannot know that it is illusion.
Pooja: The moment you become aware of the illusion, it disappears, right?
iRealization: That’s all. And not that it disappears. If a mirage comes tomorrow, in front of you, do you run behind it?
Pharrell: It was never there, so…
iRealization: It was there. It appeared. Before you ran behind it because you thought it was real. Next time it appears, now you know it’s not real, and you will not run behind it. Whether it appears or doesn’t appear, it is not relevant anymore, you know?
Pooja: You can enjoy it, right?
iRealization: “It” means what exactly? Because you see, “it” is not there. You enjoy yourself only. “Go enjoy yourself!”, you know? Why do they say that? Because the objects are imagined. The enjoyment actually comes from within. That’s why many people, given the same amazing thing, will have different experiences of it, depending on their own memories of various things that they have already experienced. Which has nothing to do with the object.
Pharrell: Regarding the fact that I am, it seems like that I know that I am, but it seems like the answer comes from experience, you know?
iRealization: Yes, that’s what’s called direct experience. You don’t need anybody else to tell you that you are.
Pharrell: I do this exercise, like… “I am seeing, so I am”. I am saying that I rely on senses.
iRealization: I understand. That’s why, for example, when you go to sleep, you don’t experience anything in deep sleep. No dream, nor waking is there.
Pharrell: I know that I am while sleeping. I know. But it is intellectual knowledge.
iRealization: No, you don’t know it. Not in sleep. You see? Because in sleep it is blocked, and now you are saying the memory of it. You’re recollecting the memory of the gap – of not knowing – and saying that I recollect sleep and I know what sleep is. You don’t know what is sleep. You’re only describing the gap right now. In memory. Memory is describing it, you see? In sleep, nobody can describe sleep. It’s only when sleeping is over can you describe “Oh, I was sleeping peacefully!” Which is imagination now. Isn’t it?
Pharrell: Yeah, but during sleep I am, right?
iRealization: You very much are. But you don’t know it. You see? The knowledge is not operating. There is no “I am” there.
What exactly is “I am”? Let’s make that wording “I am” crystal clear:
I am conscious. That is the basic sentence. You don’t have to say it every time. I am! I am what? I am conscious! So consciousness comes, and consciousness goes. Whether it’s in sleep, or unconsciousness, like fainting, there are gaps in consciousness – for instance what you call sleeping is one of those.
Pooja: If that happens it means there is change in consciousness.
iRealization: Yes. And let’s make that clear. Now we’re using the word consciousness as the content of consciousness – like all the objects, the objectified universe – but Pure Consciousness, or Awareness, is something different. But yes, right now we’re talking about the changing consciousness, which is knowledge. Knowledge is changing, never static. Your ideas are static, perhaps, but the actual universe is always changing, you know? If you try to see it will be changing. If you want real knowledge, as it is always changing, then what is the use of knowledge?
Now that we are clear as to the operation of knowledge – we see that it is shadow. And the only substance is the thing that operates the knowledge. Light is always required for that. Whether there is knowledge, or no knowledge, sleep state, or any other state, there is always Light. But the knowledge principle and the thing that causes it, which we call ego, are there as operating principles. The whole reflection, or the projection, is of the conscious state. Which is the ego being projected as the universe. As if it’s real. But it’s not real. Neither is the ego.
Pooja: I want to go back to dreaming. It seems to be that I become aware of what I am dreaming, and there’s somebody that says “This is amazing!”, that one that labels the dream as amazing, is that awareness? Or is that another part of memory getting involved in the dream?
iRealization: Awareness does not have any impurities in it. Pure Light. The Sun does not know about the universe. It does not know about night and day. It does not know about all the things happening. The sunlight is the cause of everything on Earth, but if you ask the Sun “Hey! How is your creation doing?” It will not know that there is night and day. It will not know about all those seasons, about plants growing, agriculture, etc. It does not know about it. Night and day does not exist for the Sun. Even though night and day is the basic operation of the Sun on our planet. So this means what? There is no consciousness in Awareness. But there is Awareness in consciousness.
Pooja: Yeah, of course.
Photography - Courtesy of @seefromthesky
